Converting a keyboard to Janko, 120 hand-made keys at a time

Continuing the saga of the multi-purpose keyboard replacement keys.
Before the Christmas madness hit, I made up 120 generic keyboard  

120 hand-made "uniform keyboard" (Janko) keys

keys. Then my time vanished, pleasantly to be sure, but still progress on the keyboard conversion stopped.
I'm now preparing them for mounting on a keyboard for Taylor Livingstone

The left-overs (I'll make up more if needed) I'm keen to give them to the person who will make the best use if them. If interested, prepare your case!

Spinning on an Axis Updated jan 27
Meanwhile, some of my focus has shifted to the hoped-for arrival of the $500 Axis-49 keyboard from C-Thru, with an announcement due Real Soon Now.
It is an affordable, second generation version of the Axis-64 keyboard ($1800 or so). Since this market is full of false starts, I had not wanted to depend on them until I have the unit in hand. That time draws near, we can hope. 

The Axis-49 keyboard should make a better jammer-type keyboard than the conversion keys I made, which had to be about 1/3 wider than optimum, plus stiff key issues.
So my plans to manufacture keyboard adaption keys for the M-Audio keyboard are on hold, at least until I see how the Axis-49 works. There's little point in designing ways to motorize a horse-wagon if someone is nearly ready to sell you a ready-to drive "Model T".

Why do I consider their design a "Model T"? The Axis-49 lacks a few coveted features of the ideal MusicScience keyboard: a thumb usable control-stick, sustain pedal and the Wicki key layout.

The default "harmonic table" layout is, I currently suspect, not at all easy to play when reading traditional notation, unlike the jammer's Wicki-Hayden, which is quite easy to play with traditional musical notation - easier, actually than a piano, I've found.

Why is a "Model T" better that a motorized horse-buggy?
It has velocity sensitive, finger-sized, properly shaped, hexagonal-layout, user-tested keys! My nerdy fingers twitch!

Still room for the Janko keyboard replacement keys
The keys I've made up will still be an most excellent way to convert a M-Audio keyboard to Janko layout.
There is plenty of room in the world for both Janko and exotic 'boards like the Wicki and the Axis.

Ken.

Comments

[Scoox]

Hi Ken, long time lurker here. I've been thinking about making a Janko retrofit key set for a MIDI keyboard and I'm finally going for it. Did you 3D print these keys? Do you have any tips on materials and finish, or any pitfalls you stumbled upon?

I have a Roland A-800 Pro and an M-Audio Keystation 61es. The Roland has the nicer key feel. The M-Audio seems like it would be very easy to retrofit, because both the black and the white keys use exactly the same spring (the difference is that for the black keys the spring attachment point is slightly lower so there is less pre-load). Unfortunately, the M-Audio has poor velocity response, whereby it takes excessive force to hit 127 velocity. The M-Audio keys also feel somewhat "scratchy", because the springs rub against plastic as they stretch and retract. On the Roland the springs only contact at their attachment points, so the key action feels very smooth, and the velocity response is such that I can reach 127 comfortably, so I thought I would use the Roland for this project. Unfortunately, I've just taken the cover off and noticed the springs of the black keys are different from the springs of white keys, which means some keys would require a higher attachment point but then that would rub against the top plastic cover (clearance is already pretty tight in there). So I was wondering if you could recommend conversion-friendly MIDI keyboards that you have experience with.

So far I know the Keystations are, at least the old silver model which is the one I have, hopefully the new black ones too. The Behringer U-CONTROL UMX610, based on a Youtube video I've just watched, appears to use the same system as the Keystation, with the same spring throughout.

I would immensely appreciate your input! Thank you :)

[Johannes K. Drinda]

Hi Ken,
Thank you for your kind help. I already found and bought these great looking buttons:
http://www.aliexpress.com/snapshot/6751627197.html?orderId=68006169494390
They are a bit thick (8mmm) and I might have to sand them down somewhat.
Here is a sgl. Pic of how I tin covered the Tyros3 keys:
https://www.mediafire.com/?pf9ddqd6q2f6rs5

[Ken Rushton]

Joh, I can't unpack the packed .RAR files. If you wish, i could put you in touch with Kevin of Diversions http://www.kevinknox.com/laser%20cutting.html would will cut the pieces for you. He'd have to get the plastic for you from a place like Industrial Plastics. Look around in your nearest big city - you are likely to be able to get both there.

Another, simpler, alternative would be to order 1" / 25 mm round plastic disks, or even 1 1/4 " disks and clamp a stack of them in a vise and use a sander or plane to shape them. When I made my hexagonal-shaped keys laser cutters were not available and I didn't know plastic disks were sold. Ken.

[Johannes K. Drinda]

Hi Ken,
At last I managed to finish the tin covering of the Tyros3 Kbd. Here is a Pic of it with some details:
https://www.mediafire.com/?w2u90wy4z29gp1o
Now this Kbd is ready for the Janko layout, which I epoxy glue onto the tin key platform. It will take me again a while to accomplish this final step. I might have to do it on another continent... in the Australia's tropics.
I plan to build a 4 layer Janko and each square key will be 25mm. On YouTube I saw a chap made his beautiful acrylic keys with a laser cutter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djZmS6202QE
I wished I could buy these 122 keys: i.e. 62 blue and 60 white colored key tops: otherwise I have to cut them from wood. Maybe 3-D printing services can do them as well? I thank you for your expert advice. I could even use pentagon key tops or other shapes, as long they have smooth (round) edges.
Saludos cordiales, Joh

[Ken Rushton]

Joh, Please let us know how you are doing and post pictures.
Ken.

[Johannes Drinda]

Hi Ken,
I received my X-mas present came early... :)
As you know I was pondering about how to get away with a cheap way of constructing a Janko Kbd on top of my Tyros's zebra, piano Kbd... and today I finally my wish became true: I'm going to clip on (0.3mm thick) tin covers onto each key and latching it underneath the key!
That will give me a firm platform onto which I then epoxy glue the wooden spacing blocks and the Janko keys, as I did with my old Roland D20 Synth.
This way I won't damage the Kbd and it will be easily reversible, in case it needs to be or when I sell it.
My only worry was that there's not enough space between the keys, but at 0.6mm space loss, there are about 2mm between the keys and thus, still enough free space!
In case the tinsmith asks too much, I just buy the tin, cut them myself and then only ask them to machine shape it. I have got a unique tin cutter (Aussie patent), which does not distort the tin while cutting it.
Joh

[Johannes Drinda]

Hi Ken,
I still at it... trying to convert my Tyros3 zebra Kbd to a 3 row Janko. I still think, that for a stronger Janko Kbd, I would need to (strong) glue the wooden layout. Have you any idea, where I could buy a set of plastic keys for my T3 for about $200?
Since the Kbd needs only to provide a smooth surface to glue on the wooden pieces onto it, I'm toying with the idea of creating DIY wooden keys?
Unless there's a better way of getting there, I'll have to just do that. Thx in advance for your good advice.
Warm Regards, Joh from St'go de Chile

[Johannes K. Drinda]

Hi Ken,
Jeez, your key fabrication looks very professional. I don't know how you did that!
I finally converted my old 120- single contact button Farfisa accordion bass section(only)to MIDI and it works really wonderfully. It was a 4 weeks of tedious wiring job. Now I'm even trying to emulate that famous accordion bellow shake, using the chip: "ADXL335-Module-3-axis accelerometer" mounted on a ring finger.
Next another hard job: converting my Tyros3 Kbd to a wooden, 4-row JANKO. I wished I could swap the Tyros3 keys. I already had a look inside the Tyros3 Kbd and removed a couple of keys to see if I could find an alternative way of adapting the JANKO layout. It's not that simple. A new key set for the Tyros3 costs about $300. My last project with the Roland D20 Synth wasn't too bad. I then cleanly removed the hot glued Janko layout and sold the Synth.
The thing I don't like with the wooden Janko is that it gets a bit too high. A far more elegant solution would be 3D printing. Do you know someone, who does it at a reasonable price?
Warm Regards, Johannes K. Drinda from St'go de Chile

[MusicScienceGuy]

Thanks, xhevahir, the utilities look diverse and handy.

I have Max/MSP, it allows me to design and debug fairly easily, and then create executable modules for passing around. 

Unfortunenately, It's too expensive for casual purchase.

Ken.

[xhevahir]

Turns out the Ergodex is pretty expensive once you factor in the price of additional key sets.

Should you ever wish to try out different configurations on your Axis-49, you might try something like the "notemap" utility at this musician's site: public.sreal.com:8000/~div/midi-utilities/.  

[MusicScienceGuy]

Gentlemen, Thanks for looking into this.

Re: Paul Hirch: I thought at first that the keyboard company had an optional overlay for that keyboard. I now gather that Paul had just a prototype drawing, and there's lots of work (I know well now), between a drawing and a working piece of plastic.
 
Re: The device that sirCombatWombat built: it is interesting and a good way to prototype different keyboard layouts. 

For the Time Being, my Plan A is to work with the hopefully forthcoming Axis-49. It's the closest to the base component in the keyboard design I visualize as ideal. Plan B (if Plan A fails) is to go back to the replacement keys for M-Audio. Plan B.1 is to try to get M-Audio (or some company) to make them for us, Plan C is ... to be invented if A and B fail.  

Ken.

[xhevahir]

Apparently the answer to the polyphony question, in case anyone was wondering, is that the Ergodex can take six simultaneous key-presses.

[xhevahir]

It wouldn't be velocity-sensitive obviously.  And I don't know how it would handle polyphony---qwertymidi would sometimes allow me to play triads, and sometimes only two notes at once.  But if anybody wants to experiment with the layouts on this site, this Ergodex would probably be great once you got the MIDI working.

[xhevahir]

A Finnish guy who calls himself sirCombatWombat has made an Axis-type keyboard with one of these Ergodex surfaces (http://ergodex.com/mainpage.htm).  I imagine you could use a MIDI utility like qwertymidi to try out different configurations.  

[Troy]

I've contacted Paul Hirsch (the creator of improvise.free.fr, and designer of the bean-style janko keyboard).  He has long lost his password to his own site, and has no intention of renewing it or developing whatever is on his site further.  He has also lost the STL files of his janko design, and has since moved on to learning the viola instead.

Troy  :-(

~~~

[xhevahir]

Yeah, that's the one.  I didn't see any mention of it here, and he says
on that site that he has drawings for an adaptor kit, so I just
wondered.

[MusicScienceGuy]

Sorry about the PITA features of Vox, but thank you for persevering.

Did you mean here?  http://improvise.free.fr/beanbut/bean.htm 

Ken.

[xhevahir]

Vox is a PITA.  I spend all that time setting up an account just so I can post a single comment, and then it messes that up.

Here's the link I was trying to embed: http://monxmood.free.fr/faqs.htm

[xhevahir]

Couldn't you just use

[MusicScienceGuy]

Troy,
<I just ordered an M-Audio Keystation 88es last night.>
It's a very nice key board, but does require a desktop/laptop/possilbly netbook to work.
<.[do] they order their keyboard bed from Fatar? It says
that the coil springs used for the black keys are "different" from
those used for the white keys. >
Interesting to see the obvious points of similarity in the keyboards.  The M-Audio design here is almost the same, so they have a similar origin. I was wondering about that, since If I was making the keys commercially, it would cost me over $30k to design and prove out a single key, allowing for keeping myself fed, warm and other simple things like that.

The springs on the the KS-88 are all the same, but they are stretched out different amounts by the design of the plastic key's spring holes. The difference was quite noticeable. I drilled them all out to the same depth, so that at least all the keys in the same row have the same down-weight.

For the key-caps, in a Janko design, I suggest just cutting rectangular plastic squares and sanding the edges, using 3 mm acrylic.

Ken.


Oh well, I guess if things
didn't turn out auspiciously, I could always sell my M-Audio keyboard
at some site like usedwinnipeg or craigslist....

Still rattling
my head on how to adapt the original-shaped Janko keycaps to the midi
controller without adding too much weight to the keybase. The keycaps
would need to be hollow, of course, but that would mean that I won't be
able to use resin casting to create a short run of the keycaps. I
wonder how much I would have to shell out for injection molding service
in some third-world cheap-labour country...?

Can't think of this too much. I've got a little over a month to prepare for a voice competition...

Troy :-)

[Troy]

Hi Ken.  I just ordered an M-Audio Keystation 88es last night.  I hope I made the right decision.

I was wandering in some forum today.  Do you know (or maybe ask your M-Audio contact) if they order their keyboard bed from Fatar?  It says that the coil springs used for the black keys are "different" from those used for the white keys.  When you converted yours to a uniform keyboard, do you notice/feel the difference in the touch (key resistance) between those fabricated keys that used to be black keys and those that used to be white keys?

Oh well, I guess if things didn't turn out auspiciously, I could always sell my M-Audio keyboard at some site like usedwinnipeg  or craigslist....

Still rattling my head on how to adapt the original-shaped Janko keycaps to the midi controller without adding too much weight to the keybase.  The keycaps would need to be hollow, of course, but that would mean that I won't be able to use resin casting to create a short run of the keycaps.  I wonder how much I would have to shell out for injection molding service in some third-world cheap-labour country...?

Can't think of this too much.  I've got a little over a month to prepare for a voice competition...

Troy  :-)

~~~

[MusicScienceGuy]

Good idea! Janko would likely have done it if his hardware allowed it.

With the janko conversion keys I've made up, there would be 4 key rows, now 3. 

Ken.

 

[Troy]

Ken, an idea just hit me.  Since you folded the keyboard unto itself to create your jammer, you can do the same to create a 6-tier Janko keyboard where the top 3 rows will be sound 2 octaves higher than the bottom 3 rows!  Pretty cool eh?

I feel the 3-tier Janko keyboard would be a little bit to cramped for my fingers.

Troy

~~~